The eroticization of M2F transexuals by straight men

[phellum]

I happened to come across a very interesting video of excerpts from a lecture by Nina Arsenault at York University in Canada on the eroticization of pre-op MTF transexuals.

The Eroticization of M2F Transexuals by Straight Men.

Note: She is very coarse in her description (and even uses some terms other transgender women would find offensive), so... if you're easily offended by vulgar language or by the use of terms like "-------" or "t****y", consider yourself warned.

Thoughts on what she has to say?

[izeman]

`damn, i cant decide if she is talking utter bs or total truth, some of what she says touches home, and some is way off mark. but hey, nobody toally understands any other human, no matter the gender, sometimes she seems to denegrate fake b--bs and big hair, but i think i must miss-understand her words coz she has big hair and fake b--bs.

but i admire the way she doesnt seem to care if the students are uncomfortable with her choice of words, sometimes the truth is uncomfortable, but any open minded human will listen and then decide for his/her self. i dont agree with everything she says, but i defend her right to say it.

[waltermondale]

`Nina Arsenault is a pretty amazing person, worth looking into if you are at all curious. She's a performer, artist, poet and much else.

Here is something she said someplace I noted down,

"I think a very important central decision for me that most transsexuals I know don’t make - maybe because they don’t have to – is that I decided that even though I feel I’m a woman inside that I don’t have to try to emulate or reproduce a middle class heteronormative idea of what a woman is supposed to be. I do not think I’m a 'normal' woman who was trapped in a male body -that I’d be just like other women if I had a --- change. That cultural sound byte doesn’t begin to encompass the complexity of my experience."

...what I find interesting in there is the unwillingness to diminish the complexity of experience. That said, I get that she is very much on the fringe in many respects (her ideas, etc).

Phellum, I have listened to this before and found much of it apt. I do not know much about the class of _men who desire transwomen_, though I suppose I am a member of this class (as well as others). Her point about these men often being in the closet seems likely enough. transsexual chasers need a support group (haha)

I wonder if her question about how one can have (in a 'natural' way) a desire for a body that is not "natural" (but is rather highly disciplined, etc) maybe confuses the issue somewhat. She says, exactly, "How can you be born with an attraction to people's bodies who don't even exist in nature." But as I don't think she intends to impute any value to the term 'natural' per se, so it seems sort of pointless to quibble about that one statement (ultimately, I think she'd be more inclined to dispute 'natural') but I cannot speak for her.

It seems to me that she is very insightful about the myriad ways that our fantasies allows us ways to find pleasure in this or that scenario. Her narrative of the development of interest in transwomen, though ramified and not particularly rigid (there are many 'maybes' in her account it seems), though having a bit of applicability to my own life history, maps it nicely enough but does not seem to get at the particular affective *feel* of my erotic interest in transwomen (I also have a rather different way describing what I find specifically erotically appealing, it is not the sort of hyperfemininity that she discusses though - ymmv)

That she notes how it is that we derive pleasure from how we impute ------ meanings to others bodies and our own is very clear and true.

I do not find her language coarse or problematic, but that doesn't mean much I guess. I do not use the words '-------' or 'transsexual' to describe people. But I teach at the university level and I frequently use the words more directly applicable and often that means "----" "s---" etc.

What do YOU think about Arsenault's video?

[waltermondale]

`Izeman,

I don't think she is 'degenerating' those who have breast surgeries or big hair at all, that description came up in her discussion of how a person might like to be seen as desirable and was paired (in her narrative at least) by how that body presentation matches the muscle man with tatts that turns her on. Implicit everywhere in her talk I think is that the fantasies of others will vary from the selection of her own and those of others that she provides.

That said, maybe the question to ask one's self - for anyone reading this - is, why do you find transwomen erotically desirable? Maybe you can't answer exactly, you just are... Maybe you know why...

(There are so many answers imaginable.)

[(deleted)]

waltermondale wrote: ...That said, maybe the question to ask one's self - for anyone reading this - is, why do you find transwomen erotically desirable?

I think everyone is different in how they view them self and what they find attractive.

Therefore, speaking for myself, I can say I'm attracted to the female form, but I also love -----es. Try as I might, I'm not really attracted to guys. Even the super sexy hansom hunky muscle type. I've tried to get into gay ----. Don't know what it is that turns me off. Pushy guys? The general lack of romance? I don't know. Maybe I've just not met the right guy or viewed the right ----. I love the role reversal of being with a guy, but I'm not necessarily attracted to them. Yes, I confuse myself too

Thanks just me.

[phellum]

naturist345 wrote: waltermondale wrote: ...That said, maybe the question to ask one's self - for anyone reading this - is, why do you find transwomen erotically desirable?

I think everyone is different in how they view them self and what they find attractive.

Therefore, speaking for myself, I can say I'm attracted to the female form, but I also love -----es. Try as I might, I'm not really attracted to guys. Even the super sexy hansom hunky muscle type. I've tried to get into gay ----. Don't know what it is that turns me off. Pushy guys? The general lack of romance? I don't know. Maybe I've just not met the right guy or viewed the right ----. I love the role reversal of being with a guy, but I'm not necessarily attracted to them. Yes, I confuse myself too

Thanks just me.

Since we're talking about the eroticization of transexuals, the ---- thing is interesting. The type of ---- I watch tends to be focused on the woman... I'm aroused seeing a woman get off and not at all by watching a man get off. So, to point out how complex ------ attraction can be: I'm not at all aroused by a video of a man (or a crossdresser) ------ing, but I've discovered, I am aroused by a video of a pre-op transexual ------ing. There are very few, if any, videos that are described as involving a post-op transexual woman (I haven't seen any), so I can't really speak to that, but I'm guessing I'd be just as aroused.

So, yes... it makes one wonder what exactly it is that makes me find that erotically desirable? I can't articulate exactly what that is beyond simply saying that I just do... but, I can say with certainty that it isn't some latent homosexual desire. If that were the case, one would think I would experience the same arousal watching a man ------... but, I don't at all. In watching ----, I never pay attention to the man's pleasure - be it a video of a man and a cis-woman or a video of a man and a transexual woman.

[(deleted)]

phellum wrote: ...So, yes... it makes one wonder what exactly it is that makes me find that erotically desirable? I can't articulate exactly what that is beyond simply saying that I just do... but, I can say with certainty that it isn't some latent homosexual desire. If that were the case, one would think I would experience the same arousal watching a man ------... but, I don't at all. In watching ----, I never pay attention to the man's pleasure - be it a video of a man and a cis-woman or a video of a man and a transexual woman.

That's where my mentality is as well, when it comes to ----. But my views are changing. I keep an open mind to find attraction and erotism in a man. Nearest I can tell, it's the mannerisms and not so much the ------ form. Hard to explain, but the man on man ---- I've seen lacks.....um.....hard to explain....passion? When a woman, trans, or cd ------s.....they have a certain passion. Not all mind you, I speak in generalities. Guys tend to grunt and groan which is a bit of a turn off to me. I personally love CD ---- just as much at trans ----. All depends on the person. It's the mannerisms. Doesn't matter to me if they have breasts. It's how they act and how natural they are in the moment.

Because I like the fantasies of role reversal, I like to mentally place myself in the position of the girl, trans, or CD. But I like to be with a passionate partner, so I do struggle with the guy element. However, like I said, I keep an open mind. Could be when it comes to men in ----, I just don't follow the main stream or ---- culture.

[phellum]

naturist345 wrote: phellum wrote: ...So, yes... it makes one wonder what exactly it is that makes me find that erotically desirable? I can't articulate exactly what that is beyond simply saying that I just do... but, I can say with certainty that it isn't some latent homosexual desire. If that were the case, one would think I would experience the same arousal watching a man ------... but, I don't at all. In watching ----, I never pay attention to the man's pleasure - be it a video of a man and a cis-woman or a video of a man and a transexual woman.

That's where my mentality is as well, when it comes to ----. But my views are changing. I keep an open mind to find attraction and erotism in a man. Nearest I can tell, it's the mannerisms and not so much the ------ form. Hard to explain, but the man on man ---- I've seen lacks.....um.....hard to explain....passion? When a woman, trans, or cd ------s.....they have a certain passion. Not all mind you, I speak in generalities. Guys tend to grunt and groan which is a bit of a turn off to me. I personally love CD ---- just as much at trans ----. All depends on the person. It's the mannerisms. Doesn't matter to me if they have breasts. It's how they act and how natural they are in the moment.

Because I like the fantasies of role reversal, I like to mentally place myself in the position of the girl, trans, or CD. But I like to be with a passionate partner, so I do struggle with the guy element. However, like I said, I keep an open mind. Could be when it comes to men in ----, I just don't follow the main stream or ---- culture.


And, you also identify as bisexual - so there is some homosexual attraction for you, it seems. As I've said in other threads, there's a whole spectrum of attraction based on a combination of gender, ------ orientation and levels of masculinity/femininity. I've had my experimentation - I'm a very open-minded person. I've had a number of opportunities to be with a man and it's always been non-starter... it just doesn't work for me. I find watching a man ------ing to be gross and truly unappealing and watching a pre-op transexual women ------ing to be beautiful and arousing. When I take the time to actually *nalyze that, it sounds truly bizarre... but that's just the way it is.

Perhaps, it's this: vaginas can't be what attract me to women... the women I meet are all dressed when I first meet them and making out with them, I'm not seeing their vagina. So that can't be it. Don't get me wrong... I do love vaginas; but when I picture a beautiful woman, that's not a part of their body that pops into my head. So, perhaps, that's why I have no problem with a pre-op transexual... it's not the ----- that arouses me.

Granted, I'm not attracted to more masculine looking transexuals, just as I'm not attracted to more masculine looking women or attracted to men. So, perhaps, for me, there is a certain level of femininity that I find attractive. But, not overly so... for instance, I'm sure Ms. Arsenault is a wonderful woman, but I don't find her attractive.

[(deleted)]

`I'll take a stab and say maybe it's not just the physical attraction, but the personality type as well. Unless you're hinging all your attraction based on pure physical appearance.

I think most men don't like to be challenged. Call it a primal instinct. We can get into generalities and say that most women tend to be submissive. I personally don't like to say that, because I don't think it's that women are submissive. I think it's that most women rise above the whole alpha dog challenge s--- that men pull.

It could be that you're turned off by anything that exhibits a masculine trait because you don't like to be challenged.

I'll be honest and say I'm trying to look past that myself. Call it a mental exercise. I'll look at a shaved masculine body and imagine that guy as being sensitive and in love with me. No, not ----, but someone who loves me. Now, did that person just become more attractive?

[phellum]

naturist345 wrote: `I'll take a stab and say maybe it's not just the physical attraction, but the personality type as well. Unless you're hinging all your attraction based on pure physical appearance.

I think most men don't like to be challenged. Call it a primal instinct. We can get into generalities and say that most women tend to be submissive. I personally don't like to say that, because I don't think it's that women are submissive. I think it's that most women rise above the whole alpha dog challenge sh*t that men pull.

It could be that you're turned off by anything that exhibits a masculine trait because you don't like to be challenged.
No. That's not it. While I don't hinge all of my attraction on purely physical appearance, I am referring to physical appearance in this discussion. That's why I said I'm not attracted to masculine looking women. I have no problem being challenged and have little interest in the "alpha dog" thing, myself.

[(deleted)]

`I think that like all those attempting to define the human psyche she hits on topics that are significant to some but not others. That's the problem with psychology, like a combination lock we all have a full set of numbers but each of us has our own unique combination. I'm very aroused by the feminine form and don't care much if that form has a ----- or vagina but I do desire the traditional male role for myself. As others have said I'm not turned on by overly masculine females or ts/tv/cd's and have no desire for the best of both worlds. Having said that I enjoy performing oral on both because... well just because. I don't know if that makes me selfish, I hope not, but it is what it is. Hopefully, I'll find the people that enjoy my company and possibly that special someone to share the rest of my life with.

[(deleted)]

[deleted]